Q: Because of debates over whether or not to build a huge dam on the Yangtze River, it has become one of the most talked about rivers in recent times. There have been a great number of reports in the media; recently the mainland writer Dai Qing won a prize for environmental protection for her book Yangtze, Yangtze. What different perspective do you offer in your book?

A: Ever since taking up the idea of a project on the Yangtze, what angle to take has always been a problem. I could have done a travelogue, using simple terminology, but I discovered there were many such books on the market. Many writers have done books on journeys along the Silk Road, along the borderlands, and so on.

I wanted to escape the cliches. But I didn't want to confine myself strictly to environmental protection. I thought for a long time about the overall position.

photo by pu hua-chih.

A focus of international attention

I hope that this book can be read by Chinese ten years or even twenty years from now, so they can understand the river from its source to its as yet not fully developed areas--its resources, including human and natural resources. I wanted to make a record of these resources today so that in the future we will know what we have lost.

Secondly, there is not much connection with current reports on the Three Gorges dam project, and I didn't just write the book now because the Three Gorges thing is heating up. So I deliberately spoke little about Three Gorges, and what I did write is different from what others have written. Most people emphasize human, historical, and artifact conservation; I placed my emphasis on water and soil damage--which will definitely be major problems in the future. When you go to see the Yangtze now, it is already brownish and muddy; this problem will get worse over the next ten years.

On the other hand, I didn't not talk about Three Gorges. Other media have talked about it from the angles of news, technology, history, or the human angle. I just hope this book isn't seen as being simply a call of opposition to the Three Gorges project.

The greatest weakness of the book is that it doesn't describe enough about the relationship between the people and the water. The Yangtze is not like rivers in Taiwan. Because of geographic factors, rivers in Taiwan are fast and have sharp drops. They fill up rapidly as soon as it rains, and are not suitable for boating or transport. But the mainland lives on its waters. The affinity between people and rivers is very, very strong. But the book did not bring this theme out, and it is somewhat weaker in the photography as well.

Q: You chose not to get embroiled in the dam debate, but set off in search of the headwaters instead. Of what help is this to readers in understanding the practical problems the Yangtze faces today?

Water can float a boat, or sink it

A: I can only do the most that I can with the understanding of the particular stage that I am at. Taking the first chapter for example, I talked about the water resources of the Chin-sha River. It all depends on how you use them: Use them correctly and they are an asset, use them incorrectly and they are a disaster.

In the next section that goes up to the Three Gorges area, I talked about mud. From this part on the upstream portion in Szechuan, each chapter had a focus. For example at the Min River, I talked about the ancient Tuchiang Embankment, and made a comparison between that and Three Gorges. You could say that the former is the simplest, most humane form of water conservancy project, and it has benefited countless people over the last 2,000 years.

At the Tungting Lake I talked about the problem of silting of the lake. At each stage I clearly have a focal point to capture the special features of that stage. I am confident that when readers are done reading this book, they will have a general understanding of all aspects of the Yangtze. I think what I am doing is popularization of science, and not environmental conservation.

The reason I avoided getting into current events or politics is long-term: I hope that ten years down the road when readers look at this book they will still find it has sound points to make.

Q: You have gone from We Only Have This One Earth to We Only Have This One Yangtze. Why have you thought to extend your concern for the local area outward? Has our call for concern for the local environment achieved its goals for this stage?

The winding Yangtze River supports vast amounts of life. （photo by Yang En-sheng）

An endless dispute

A: When we wrote We Only Have This One Earth, some people criticized us as intellectuals only talking about soft things. I understood quite well that when it came to legislation we had no way to participate, and no real room to move. I felt that what we were doing was to keep beating the drum off to the side. For example, the four national parks were established at that time. If the national parks had not been set up at that time, given the current chaos in the Legislative Yuan, with so many interest groups, could they have even gotten through?

The establishment of the parks ten years ago at least fixed the task of protecting the environment of the upstream portions, such as the forest and water resources. I shouldn't really say that it marked the end of a stage, but I knew that in other areas like pollution prevention there was little we could accomplish. Because today environmental protection is involved with politics, sometimes it evolves into fierce political battles, so I no longer participate so actively in environmental work.

Q: Because the Three Gorges project is extremely complex, there are many different opinions pro and con. Those opposed accuse the political leaders of simply liking grandiose white elephants while ignoring the ecology and the overall interests of the nation. Those who approve say that the dam could resolve the eternal problem of flooding on the Yangtze, and feel that this enormous project would enable the country to become wealthy and strong, creating a chance to do something unparalleled in the world. Do the different views in Taiwan have any impact on the fact of the construction of the dam itself? What is your view of building a dam on the Yangtze?

A: In fact, what we say is useless. We understand quite clearly that there is nothing we can do except make a record for the Chinese in Taiwan and express concern about this affair. I'm powerless to do anything about what is done in the mainland, but I express my concern. Five or ten years from now they will discover that at least the people in Taiwan are not opposed to the Chinese Communists per se, but start off from the perspectives of humanitarianism and environmentalism in expressing their concern. I have no intention of achieving any political objective. I just want to leave a record and express my concern.

Big is beautiful?

Even if you're talking about the Three Gorges Environmental Impact Assessment Committee, they are under a pretty low ranking bureau. In terms of economic development, Chinese have always been fascinated with the Western idea that big is beautiful, that big is good.

In the philosophy the Chinese Communists have about environmental protection, assessments of the Three Gorges are all of a technical nature: How can things be moved? How much will all this cost? But there are many other implications: For example, the problem of moving the population out of the area that will be flooded by the dam is extremely serious. You have to build new housing, cut down lots of forest, and destroy the already weak ecology of the Three Gorges area. There will also be serious losses of water and soil. On these points there are strong arguments for and against. Dai Qing's book brought together the views of opponents of the project, and they found a little publisher in Kweichow and got the thing out in about ten days. The Chinese Communist authorities were very put out by this matter. She herself says that the reason she stays abroad is because of the Three Gorges thing.

I know that in Chungking, Chengtu, Wuhan, and other large cities they have brownouts and really need the power. But power generation should aim to minimize risks. You could build dams and power generating plants on the tributaries; you don't have to put all your eggs in one basket. With so many people in the mainland, there is definitely a shortage of electricity. But what about water? Ten years ago I said that Taiwan's problems were not in its population but in its water. That's because if there are a lot of people you can always build high-rises, but you can't transport in water and you can't buy it. The situation in the mainland is the same. For example, people in Shanghai do not want the dam to be built, because the quality of the water from the Suchow River there is already foul, and it is necessary to add vast amounts of chlorine and to filter it. The water problem will be even more serious after the dam is built.

A collective historical memory?

Q: Since the Three Gorges dam is going to be built, travel agencies in Taiwan have been appealing for customers with the theme of "say goodbye to the Yangtze." Do you have any suggestion for these people who want to go and enjoy the beauty of the Yangtze?

A: I would suggest to them not to go now. Right now the the living arrangements are very poor, and it often happens that there are two people stuffed into a room for one. Secondly, if you really do want to go, please don't spend all your time on the boat playing mahjong. Most of the tourists in the organized tours of the Yangtze are from Taiwan, and they look like a hive of bees trying to be fashionable. I think you should go after some time has passed, and make sure you have some preparation and understanding of the human environment on the Yangtze.

In fact, I think that no place in the world can compete with Taiwan's gorges, like the Taroko National Park.

If you go to the Three Gorges with great expectations, you might be disappointed. Right now you can only see mountains and greenery in the Little Three Gorges. In other places, there are some old artifacts along the banks, but they are really very mediocre. Another reason is that you're not taking one of those little rowboats, but a big paddle steamer, which certainly detracts from the majesty of nature. You can't get the feeling anymore of "passing ten thousand mountains in a light raft," as the old poets had it.

The natural environment in the mainland, because of overpopulation, after forty years of division is not really very much like the natural scenery depicted so glowingly in textbooks in Taiwan. The rivers and mountains of course still have their allure, but because of historical and emotional factors, if you long excessively for a fantasy, you will come back disappointed.

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photo by Pu Hua-chih

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The winding Yangtze River supports vast amounts of life. (photo by Yang En-sheng)