Q: Can you divide Britain's many museums, galleries and historic buildings into categories and find a place for the Royal Pavilion?
M: In the country as a whole you have various types of cultural-historical attractions. At the top you have the national museums, like the British Museum. They cover the whole country and often the whole world.
Below this you have a series of regional museums, of which Brighton is one. It is not just the Royal Pavilion, we also have a museum of local history, a natural history museum and an art gallery.
Then there is a range of local museums. Some of these are run by local governments, others by the private sector. There is also the National Trust, which is a private organisation mainly concerned with preservation of the natural landscape and historic houses.
The Royal Pavilion fits into this everywhere and nowhere. It is a national monument as a form of royal palace, but it is also a part of Brighton's heritage; it is a national monument that is run by local government in Brighton. It is not a royal palace any more--it is not managed by the Royal Family or the government.
Q: What is your opinion on the recent debate over whether it is right for museums and galleries to charge admission fees? Should institutions like yours be geared towards an academic and educational role or the provision of leisure services?
M: The museum and art gallery do not charge an entrance fee but the Pavilion does because it is in the tradition of historic houses, which have always charged. It is also because we are competing in a cultural field and we could not afford to run the Pavilion if we did not charge. There is also the problem of tourism as an agent of destruction--in some ways it is a way of controlling the number of visitors.
We get about 300,000 visitors each year. The annual income from admissions and the shop is about 1 million. That is a lot of money, but only a small part of the running costs. Almost the whole cost of the structural restoration --￡10 million--has been paid for by Brighton Borough Council, which means local community charge payers.
I personally believe in free access to museums very strongly because they are a cultural and educational resource. Perhaps I am slightly old-fashioned now in the views of some of my museum colleagues in this country. I hope not, but I worked at the British Museum when I started and I was very much conditioned by that way of thinking.
Q: Does the Royal Pavilion also take responsibility for educational and research activities?
M: Although the Royal Pavilion is more of a tourist attraction, there is no doubt that scholars are welcome here. We are creating an archive room and we have sessions where people can go to lectures on the restoration and conservation of the building, as well as select tours of the workshops.
There are concerns in the building and local school children have free admission and educational tours. We try to restore it to the status of a royal palace and use it in an appropriate fashion, but it has to be such that the Brighton people feel it is theirs. That is very important.
Q: The Pavilion has had a love-hate relationship with the people of Brighton. How do you persuade the community charge payers and the Council to continue to pay for its upkeep?
M: It is true that the Pavilion has always been a source of controversy and there have always been battles with the town and the Council. On my notice board there is a document put out in the 1840s saying "No More Taxes!". That is because people at that time were opposed to Brighton buying the Royal Pavilion from Queen Victoria. In the 1920s there was also a movement against the Pavilion. They were arguing about it then and they always will. Yet no matter whether it has been a Conservative or Labour Council, all have done their utmost to find funds for the Pavilion under very tight financial circumstances.
The Pavilion is the symbol of Brighton and the council realises it brings wealth to the town and makes it stand out from other coastal resorts; the Mayor's office is in the Pavilion and whenever there is a dignitary visiting, sometimes foreign ambassadors, they come here. But we have to argue everything out with the Council and they have to know where the money is going, quite rightly.
Q: The Pavilion ceased to belong to the Royal Family after it was bought by Brighton Council in 1850. What is its present relationship with the Royal Family?
D: It is very good. They take an interest in it and Prince Charles is now patron of the Friends. We have quite a lot of objects on loan from the Royal collections--objects which were here in the 1820s and then taken to Buckingham Palace and other palaces when Queen Victoria sold the building. They have been very generous in letting things come back again. They have also allowed us to go to the Palace and make a nuisance of ourselves copying, making measured drawings and taking photographs of those fittings and other objects that cannot be removed.
Q: In light of your policy of restoring the Pavilion to its original state, there must be resistance to your requests for some of the best items in Buckingham Palace and Windsor Castle?
D: I have seen most of the materials in Buckingham Palace and it is quite an eye-opening experience. There is a great deal there, most of which still plays an active role in Buckingham Palace today. A lot of the rooms are refurbished with mantels above the doors and fireplaces from the Pavilion. A lot of ceramics and decorations are from the Pavilion. The Royal Family have been very generous, but there are some other things that are highly desirable--we will never get them all back.
Q: It is said that Queen Victoria only came to the Pavilion once and did not like it. Yet she took so many things to Buckingham Palace. How do you interpret this?
D: I can definitely say that Victoria came here more than once. In fact she had a suite of rooms built on the first floor. I think it was the lack of privacy and associations with George IV that she was not too keen on.
The fact that so many fittings and furnishings were taken to Buckingham Palace makes me think that Victoria did actually quite like the Chinese taste of the Pavilion. We have inventories describing her suite of rooms and she surrounded herself with chinoiserie wallpaper, so I do not believe that she did not like the Pavilion taste. The suite is being restored at the moment but should be open to the public next year.
Q: We know the Pavilion was first converted in 1786 and underwent repeated changes thereafter. What then do you call the "original" appearance?
D: We are trying to get it back to its appearance in the 1820s, its heyday under George IV. As for the overall restoration, I think the emphasis is more away from "restoration" and in favour of conservation and protection. At the Pavilion, because there is so little of the original left inside, the policy has been to create, based on documentary evidence, inventories, illustrations and fragments of wallpaper.
This does raise all sorts of ethical problems about the later phases of restoration. In the banqueting room, for example, we have two fireplaces which date from shortly after Brighton bought the Pavilion. Should we take them out and put copies of the originals in?
Q: That is interesting because, concerning the problem over whether or not to allow the statue of the Three Graces to be exported, someone has suggested that we should solve the problem by making plaster casts and selling the original.
D: Well, you can do that with Michelangelo as well, but it is not the artistic process that goes with it. Here it is different because we have almost got a clear canvas. Particularly for these upper rooms. For example, in the 1950s, things like Mrs Fitzherbert's rooms were created. Yet she never actually lived in the building and the reconstruction looked like a 1950s regency house. We have decided that if we cannot get the original furniture back then we will copy some originals of the right period. The furniture here is as scientifically and academically accurate as we can get it. Believe it or not, we can even do 19th-century Chinese export paintings.
Q: Is that so? I thought that such Chinese-style artists had gradually disappeared since the Opium War.
D: Here we have had several generations of craftsmen who have worked in the building. Now we are moving more towards conservators. It is a very good combination.
Q: Can you talk a bit about the structural work and repairs?
D: From 1991 the building will look, from the outside, more like its original appearance than at any time since the 1820s. The building is being repainted in its original colour scheme. Inside we have still got these upper rooms to do.
The building has faced environmental problems. It was absolutely riddled with dry rot and we could never eradicate it completely because the walls are painted plaster. You cannot go straight through them without destroying the historic fittings. So we are devising a computer system to monitor the environmental conditions in the building to give us an early warning of danger.
We also have car pollution and salt from the sea. We have preserved the structure, if we can, using proper stone materials wherever possible. We are developing a very comprehensive maintenance programme. I think that is a lesson for anyone involved in restoration: it is not the cost of the work--it is what you do afterwards.
Q: What image of the Pavilion did you have before you came?
D: I occasionally came to Brighton as a child. I remember the Pavilion as a rather shabby green building, and that is about all. I worked in Glasgow before I came here, on the Burrell collection, which was a new building with a magnificant Chinese collection. I was interested in building a new museum and that was a huge project. To come after that to somewhere that had a major restoration programme was very interesting.
Q: How would you describe the Royal Pavilion now?
D: A unique piece of exoticism. I cannot describe it in any other way. It does relate to the 18th-century chinoiserie buildings in Europe and England, but in this period and on such a scale, with that sort of Islamic exterior and the gothic elements on top--it is quite extraordinary!
Q: Has the Pavilion influenced your view of China?
D: No, it is so obviously pastiche. I think I had a better impression of Chinese culture when I worked at the Burrell collection. I have never handled objects like some of the Chinese pieces which actually made my fingers tingle to touch them.
Q: Has George IV's dreamland worked on you five years after coming from the new building in Glasgow?
D: It is a very good question, but difficult to answer. One remembers that the Pavilion was also an artistic power house: Rossini gave concerts here, and the literary associations of the court, the intelligentsia...It has this sort of fantasy and exoticism which makes it different. It does make a very strong impression, particularly in the evenings, when there is a function on. You really have to think how it was in the 1820s. It is rather nice when that happens--you feel that George IV is quite happy with what is going on.
[Picture Caption]
Admission fees are usually charged at historic buildings in Britain, both to supplement expenses and to control the quantity of visitors. At left is Windsor Castle; at right, Brighton Palace.
The fishing village of Brighton is now a major tourist attraction thanks to the Pavilion.
Seaside decorations throughout England have been influenced by the Pavilion.
Next year will be the time to see the Pavilion exterior fully restored t o its original condition.
The 162-foot corridor is a world of bamboo (photo courtesy of Royal Pavilion)
The enthusiastic application of Dr. Marks' long museum experience has born splendid fruits. (photo courtesy of C. Hughes)
Six upstairs rooms, including Queen Victoria's bedroom, will soon be open to the public. (photo courtesy of C. Hughes)
This wallpaper in an upstairs corridor has been the most intact find so far. (photo courtesy of C. Hughes)
Any remaining fragments of the original interior are extremely valuable guides to the restoration. (photo courtesy of C. Hughes)
at right, Brighton Palace.
The fishing village of Brighton is now a major tourist attraction thanks to the Pavilion.
Seaside decorations throughout England have been influenced by the Pavilion.
Next year will be the time to see the Pavilion exterior fully restored t o its original condition.
The 162-foot corridor is a world of bamboo （photo courtesy of Royal Pavilion）
The enthusiastic application of Dr. Marks' long museum experience has born splendid fruits. （photo courtesy of C. Hughes）
Six upstairs rooms, including Queen Victoria's bedroom, will soon be open to the public. （photo courtesy of C. Hughes）
This wallpaper in an upstairs corridor has been the most intact find so far. （photo courtesy of C. Hughes）
Any remaining fragments of the original interior are extremely valuable guides to the restoration. （photo courtesy of C. Hughes）
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