Q: Why are you interested in Taoism?
A: It's not just me; it's a tradition of French sinology. The French began studying Taoism with sociological methods around the turn of the century. The great sociologist Emile Durkheim wrote a book called Les formes elementaires de la vie religieuse that was very influential. Durkheim's friend Edouard Chavannes also paid a great deal of attention to the folk religions of China, as did his disciples Henri Maspero and Max Kaltenmark. So I'm in the fourth generation.
In fact, Taoism has always been a strong subject of research with foreigners. It wasn't studied much during the 600 years from the Ming to the Ching dynasty, because Chinese intellectuals have tended to look down on it.
Q: It's said that you once lived on Taiwan for eight years and became a Taoist priest. Is that true?
A: It is. I was doing research in 1963 at the Academia Sinica in Nankang. Field work and real-life contact are important in sociology, so I went to Tainan to follow a master and took the Taoist name Ting-ch'ing. Each day we chanted scripture, performed Taoist rituals, prayed for spirits, and so forth, and I saw a lot of planchette writing and chi-t'ung [Taoist mediums]. My children were all born in Taiwan, and they still go back each year to visit.
Q: Having taken part in so many ceremonies, do you basically believe in it or not?
A: Well, Taoism talks about the concept of the Earth Mother, and for Westerners, who have the concept of heaven instead, that's rather hard to accept. But I believe in it. To put it another way, Chinese folk religion is about "orthopractice": as long as the methods and rituals are correct, they'll work. It doesn't care too much about what you believe--unlike Christianity, which is about "orthodoxy" and demands firm belief.
Q: You're said to be working on a catalog and abstract of the complete Taoist Canon. How's it going?
A: It's almost finished and will be published this year by the University of Chicago Press. The project has gone on for ten years. It's been supported by the European Science Foundation, and France, West Germany, Switzerland, Denmark, and the Netherlands have all taken part. It's been done quite well, considering the tight funds and the rush.
Q: Taoism still has a lot of influence on Taiwan among the people. . . .
A: No, you can't say that. Who among the general public speaks up for Taoism? Who calls himself a Taoist and studies the Taoist Canon? No one says he believes in Taoism just because he's asked a Taoist priest to perform a ritual for him. So even though Taoism has a deep influence, it's part of the collective unconsciousness, and it hasn't achieved the status and importance it should.
Q: Maybe that's because most people don't distinguish clearly between Taoism and Buddhism. What is the origin of Taoism? Is it Taoist philosophy?
A: Of course. This can be seen from historical sources. Taoism arose later than Taoist philosophy, but it holds the thought of Lao-tzu and Chuang-tzu as representative, and they worship Lao-tzu as the religion's initiator. It's a fact.
Q: It's always been hard to separate Buddhism and Taoism, and many people believe that Confucianism, Buddhism, and Taoism are one. Is this a characteristic of Chinese religion?
A: It is. Confucianism, Buddhism, and Taoism were not very close originally, but the Chinese are completely different from Westerners in religious thinking. Westerners are exclusive and "xenophobic," with a strong conception of the polarity of us and them and right and wrong. But the Chinese are inclusive. Didn't Dr. Sun Yat-sen's Three Principles of the People fuse together elements of Christianity, Confucianism, Taoism, the Legalists, and various Western theories? This is completely different from the exclusive thinking of the West. So at the end of the Ming dynasty, when Chinese scholars heard the Catholic missionary Matteo Ricci say, "You've got to believe in my religion to be right; if you don't, you're wrong," they felt it was a bad thing. They said, "If Ricci's thinking catches on in China, then Chinese culture is in for it!" And what they said has been proved only too true. Marxism-Leninism is another Western product with a monopoly on truth, and sure enough, it led to catastrophe in China. So the saying that the three religions are one is one of the great aspects of Chinese philosophy.
Q: Can Western sinologists really understand and appreciate this kind of philosophy?
A: It's very difficult. If you analyze it from the viewpoint and with the methods of Western philosophy, you won't come up with much. Then again, Chinese culture is so rich and longstanding that one person can only absorb so much in one lifetime. Particularly since Western sinologists have such a poor foundation, even to call a Westerner a sinologist is pretty ridiculous. Sinology is the "national study" of China and can't be mastered by foreigners.
If Western sinology has some significance, it's in cultural interchange. Why do so many Westerners study--you can't call it research--Chinese culture? Because we very much need it. In the world cultural system, the Orient is represented by the two great ancient civilizations of China and India. But India is still part of Indo-European culture and close to the West--the Catholic monastic system, for example, comes from Buddhism. The only one completely different from the West is China. Does the world need several different cultures, you might say? Why shouldn't they all be the same? Such as Protestants and Catholics, who want only one belief, one culture, and one value system in the world.
Why should we study China? You can use botany as an analogy. Each culture is like a species of plant; it has strong points and weak points different from the others. The same kind of plant will weaken after a while if it's not cross-fertilized to improve the next generation. The botanists of the world keep a gene bank to preserve seeds that may or may not be needed now, because you never know what problems may come up with varieties that are flourishing now, and they might be needed later. But the first step of cross-fertilization is to preserve a "pure variety" with its own characteristics. So the study of traditional Chinese culture, in the long view, is really for the good of world culture. More and more people in academic circles in the West have come to realize this in recent years, such as Piet van der Loon in Oxford and Jacques Gernet in France, who are both first-rate scholars. Our consensus is: Chinese culture is too serious to be left to the Chinese alone.
[Picture Caption]
Dr. Schipper has a Taoist altar in his home before which he frequently meditates.
For French graduate students, Taoist ceremonies are something mysterious and distant indeed. Professor Schipper is shown lecturing at University of Paris IV.
Dr. Schipper photographed in the Sorbonne district.
The various Chinese reference books on the shelves are Dr. Schipper's helpful assistants.
For French graduate students, Taoist ceremonies are something mysterious and distant indeed. Professor Schipper is shown lecturing at University of Paris IV.
For French graduate students, Taoist ceremonies are something mysterious and distant indeed. Professor Schipper is shown lecturing at University of Paris IV.
The various Chinese reference books on the shelves are Dr. Schipper&aposs helpful assistants.
Dr. Schipper photographed in the Sorbonne district.
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