"I am not a success!" he even replies, then with a laugh begins to recount how as a child he often skipped class and took time off school. "It was fine for other people to sit there, but I just didn't like being restrained." Fortunately he met an attentive teacher who knew that he liked singing, and often brought him over to practice together, one playing the hu-ch'in fiddle, one accompanying in song. After that his restless spirit settled down and he was no longer afraid of school.

While at junior high school he had to take half a year off class because of health, and in this time developed a love for films, and writing film reviews. He was doing very well in his studies too, and progressed smoothly from NTNU attached middle school to the chemical engineering department at National Taiwan University. After graduation he took a masters degree in chemical engineering at the University of California, Berkeley, and a doctorate at Carnegie Mellon University.

"I Am a Person Who Makes Many Demands on Myself": He says he was lucky to have had good teachers all the way through: "I feel very grateful to them." But he also says: "I may have done well in my studies and ascended smoothly to university and beyond, but actually, getting first place was never in my mind when I took exams, just the fear of doing badly, which made me prepare very thoroughly."

It is not only in his studies that he is a perfectionist. "I am a person who makes many demands on myself. After something has happened I go over it to myself, and don't like to shift responsibility for it onto others' shoulders. So I tend to see many places where improvements and breakthroughs can be made."

Because he is used to taking responsibility on himself, he acknowledges that failings in education account for the recent spate of suicides by schoolchildren. "By now it is already too late to say that such and such percentage of the responsibility rests with so and so."

During his tenure as president of the Taiwan Institute of Technology, and National Tsing Hua University, he was known for his bold reforms, and now as minister for education he is even more determined to face 40-year-old ailments in the education system. Fm rectifying and standardizing teaching at elementary and high schools, to announcing that the "ogre" of the joint college entrance examination will be struck down, he and his plans have caused a stir in public opinion, and have both their doubters and their ardent supporters.

Get Everything in Order, Then Destroy the "Ogre": Those who are worried say: "There will definitely be a drop in educational standards without the entrance exams," and "we shouldn't drive out the ogre only to bring in a worse monster--special privilege." Supporters say: "The examination system has to go if we are to establish a varied education system to meet the needs of a pluralist society." For them, this is the cornerstone of education reform.

Minister Mao, however, earnestly believes that before the policy is decided on there must be wide consultation, and once it is made it must stay firm. He emphasizes the necessity to see the wood before seeing the trees, and systematically search out and solve problems, rather than letting the plan get bogged down in technical complications. In the four years as education minister the "fringe facilities" he set up one by one have gradually materialized, so that the current plan to "destroy the examination ogre" does not appear vague and ill-considered.

Standardizing Teaching Begins at Home: As the interview reached about seven o'clock in the evening, the secretary brought in a pizza to stave off hunger. He laughs how it is a long-term war of resistance for him, as he does not usually finish work until about eight, when he goes home to eat with his family. "They wait for me," he laughs. The conversation turned to his own style of "home teaching."

He energetically advocates the standardization of education, and is even ahead of the times, using his daughter to "experiment." "I grew up together with my daughter," he says. He insisted on her not going to cram schools, and some reference books she brought home are left to one side, untouched. "The basic principles of study have to be retained." When his daughter encounters problems studying, he thinks of ways to help her solve them, or asks a friend to help. But his daughter, Mao Ai-ling, was bothered by "not having what everyone else has," and felt insecure about it. "One evening soon before exams she ran out and didn't know what to do. I walked about with her on the campus at Tsing Hua University, determined to help her break through it!" Father and daughter together that evening can still be seen in the mind's eye. Mao Ai-ling has already graduated and moved on to graduate school at the same university.

"There are many frustrations during growing up, but I believe it is marvelous if one uses frustration to look at oneself, change oneself, and get stronger rather than hiding from it."

During the interview he patiently explained his elaborately drawn up blueprint for reform, speaking contemplatively in a low voice. But also he frequently broke into laughter as if a weight had been lifted from his shoulders, but perhaps even more to encourage himself under the burden that he bears.