Q. You have been in office for eight months now. In terms of the problems of industrial pollution and wastewater from pig farms, you have given the Ministry of Economic Affairs and the Council of Agriculture a strong dose of environmental protection pressure. The director of the COA has even visited you personally to discuss the problem of the time limit for pollution controls. Some say you have turned the EPA from a weak agency into a strong agency. What do you think?

A. I think you shouldn't use the terms "weak" and "strong." Before, during the tenure of Director [Eugene] Chien, the EPA had only recently been set up. He had to recruit new personnel, establish a system, and found the whole enterprise. But three or four years ago environmental awareness was not so strong as it is now, and today conditions have relatively matured in the larger picture, and both society and political commentators understand that this matter can no longer be delayed. And not only in Taiwan -- the whole world is looking seriously at environmental protection, and the world has already been brought by us to this state of collapse. For these reasons, it is best to say that we are acting in accord with the trends. In any case, the time has arrived, so the attitude we adopt should be different.

Harsh Medicine Needed

Q. The EPA is the highest environmental protection agency in the Executive Yuan, and its most important task is to coordinate all the ministries and agencies to work together on environmental protection. But in your uncompromising attitude--for example your reaction to the Linkou incident and your refusal of the request of Taiwan Power general manager Chang Ssu-min to extend the deadline for improvement on their pollution situation--you are not considering the "political big picture." Do you think this will affect environmental protection work?

A. We are not taking a high and mighty posture, only saying those things we are supposed to be saying. The EPA has the EPA's position, just as the Ministry of Economic Affairs will issue some declarations, and ministers should all be able to mutually understand one another's positions. Today, the environmental degradation is already severe, and popular expectations are high, giving the government a great deal of pressure. We have no choice but to prescribe harsh medicine.

In fact, right now all ministries place great emphasis on the environment. Minister Siew of the Ministry of Economic Affairs (MOEA) has said to me more than once that he also believes that factories which evade regulations on pollution controls should be punished. To rely today on only the EPA would be bad. For example, the Department of Health should guide hospitals in the proper disposal of their waste, the Ministry of Communications must resolve vehicle exhaust emissions . . . . We go everywhere pleading with everyone to work together in environmental protection. But the resources of every ministry are limited, and work must have priorities; we just hope that at the same time as they are implementing policy they can also take environmental protection into serious consideration.

From Criticism to Caution

Q. Going from a legislator to the director of the EPA, many people doubted that you could thoroughly maintain your environmental position vis-a-vis business and public enterprises, or even undertake those things you interpellated and demanded of the EPA when you were a legislator. After half a year, what do you think is most difficult in terms of maintaining your same attitudes in going from a legislator to the cabinet?

A. In fact, there isn't that much of a difference between legislator and executive official, and moreover, the powerful trend is for legislators to enter the cabinet in the future. In countries with cabinet systems like Japan, and the UK and other European countries, the main cabinet members are all members of parliament, and there is no conflict between the two sets of responsibilities.

I think that what is relatively different about these two roles is the role of the elected representative is to be highly critical, and always to seek the optimum. For example, in the past I advocated permitting teachers and civil servants to visit their relatives in mainland China. In my heart I knew there could not be complete liberalization; and later the Executive Yuan ended up agreeing to first allow teachers to go. If I had only requested teachers, maybe they would have only permitted janitors. If you reach for the top, you might get half. If you aim Iow, that's the same as not asking in the first place. As for an executive branch official, because you have the public power in your hands, the responsibility is on your head, so you cannot exaggerate when you speak, and you must do those things you say you will do. You will discover that as head of the EPA I have become far more cautious in my comments; you have to consider every angle of a matter and only speak when you have a good grip on things.

Business vs. Jaw?

Q. You have undertaken very rigorous inspection of industry, and directly ordered polluting industries to close factories. Not long ago, the Legislative Yuan passed the first reading of the "Environmental Impact Assessment Law." The EPA will possess permit power for purchase of minerals or development of nuclear power. It is said that this is a gift to you from the "New Kuomintang Alliance" [the caucus to which Jaw belonged in the legislature]. But business has expressed great dissatisfaction with this, and some have even suggested that it's "business vs. Jaw." What are your thoughts?

A. I think this is only because a small number of people in the business community are not familiar with my style. In the past, whenever the government asked them to undertake environmental protection, business would always first respond negatively and make a fuss to see whether or not they could force the government to back down. But when it comes to me, it's no use. Before undertaking any measure, I always go through a careful evaluation, first fixing the decision and then acting. If action begins, it must always show results.

I have many friends in the business community. I often say to them, "That today you are able to be a successful entrepreneur is certainly because you have a method for doing things, and are meticulous and efficient. If you were me, what would you do? In fact, you'd be lucky if you weren't even harder than me!" Today I'm just making demands on you on the basis of laws that have been in place for a long time. You say I'm not giving you time, but the water standards were set four and a half years ago--isn't four and a half years time enough? Everyone is watching and waiting, and the reasons all seem right but really are illusory. For example, some people say, "You don't ever catch the underground [illegal] factories for their pollution, so you go extra hard after the legally registered factories." Of course we want to catch the underground factories! But that doesn't mean we shouldn't catch the legal factories. That's like a car saying that you should first catch all the motorcycles breaking the law before you come after me, or motorcycles saying you should first arrest all the jaywalkers' before you come after me--then nobody need do anything at all!

Business Should Recognize the Environmental Trend: As for the "Environmental Impact Assessment Law," not only the New Kuomintang Alliance supported it; many legislators from the Democratic Progressive Party and the Hou-sheng Hui Association [another caucus in the Legislative Yuan] also offered many ideas and much support. Everyone had achieved a consensus that Taiwan's environment has already reached the current state, and we can no longer neglect environmental protection. So the business community should clearly recognize this fact, and it has to be done sooner or later.

Today Taiwan's foreign currency reserves plus gold assets total nearly US$100 billion, and you still want to pollute our air, land, and rivers to increase product competitiveness to manufacture cheap products for foreigners to use; you earn that much foreign exchange and you do nothing but issue NT dollars, creating crazy land and stock speculation, so that the middle class and young couples in Taipei can't afford to buy homes! Is this the purpose for which we have developed the economy? We should all seriously reflect about this issue.

I by no means oppose industry or economic development, but you can't cover Taiwan with filth for that reason alone. Businesses especially can't just think about making money in Taiwan, to hell with the environment! To hell with future generations! I know that certainly some entrepreneurs don't plan for their families to live in Taiwan, and have gotten foreign passports or permanent residence, and only see this land as a place to make money, and will scurry off abroad when they've made their fill. I can't stand this!

The Long and Short of It

Q. Besides exerting every effort to inspect industrial pollution, you have also stipulated several working points including river cleanup, resource reclamation and recycling, and environmental impact assessment, and have indicated you will commit one half of your manpower to these matters. On what kind of considerations did you base this policy choice?

A. Environmental protection work must take into account long-term development, but there are also several pressing matters which require similar attention. For example, garbage has already piled up to our doors, and it is impossible to put this issue off. So I want to use half the personnel to do routine tasks, and then use the other half to do "main work points."

I talked this over with each office director, and laid out the main directions of EPA administration. For example, things like the quality of drinking water, the construction of incinerators, and the setting up of environmental quality monitoring stations in all areas are all intimately related to the lives of the people, and are very important. We have set up the so-called "Power Special Committee" and placed these main points under their supervision. For instance, with regards to the Tamsui river cleanup plan, the special committee must make a progress report to me every two weeks, and in this way focus on various bottlenecks. We have done this continually for half a year, and some bottlenecks have been very gradually resolved. Recently, we coordinated between Taipei county and Taipei City to get the land for stockpiling the brick and stone for water works projects. Of course, it's really the provincial and local governments that must implement things, and we can only be responsible for coordination and guidance. But I demand of my colleagues that they don't just sit in an office and guide and coordinate. Rather they must go right to the site, understand where the problems are, and think of ways to help the locality resolve problems.

Punishment Is Not the Purpose

Q. Going forward all out in this way, and especially going all out to inspect industrial pollution, although you have won public accolades, with the EPA taking the initiative on these things, won't there be exhaustion in the long run because of this, with no way to maintain it?

A. Inspection is still primarily the work of local government, but the total manpower for all of Taiwan for environmental inspection is only 600 plus, while there are more than 90,000 factories, 45,000 pig-raising households, 12 million motor vehicles, and there are the problems of garbage and water pollution as well. We can only work on the main points, one enterprise at a time, one area at a time.

For instance, at this stage the main point is inspecting the expulsion of wastewater by pig farms and underground factories. If a certain city or county does not do a thorough job, we shift inspectors to concentrate in that city or county for two or three months. On the one hand this gives the local government some added pressure, and on the other plays the role of "bad cop" for them, absorbing some of the local pressure. We have already seen some results. Recently a large number of dyeing, paper manufacturing, and chemical fiber factories and companies have indicated willingness to do environmental protection. The brick and tile factory association has said it will stand with the EPA to oversee factory improvement. This is the actual goal--our purpose is not to punish people, but it's only fair to the law-abiding factories if the government earnestly implements the law.

A Tragic Hero

Q. You have released a list of the city mayors and county magistrates whose localities are not strongly doing environmental protection work. What's the reason?

A. Politicians should have consistency in word and deed. Today, environmental protection is often a major plank for candidates at election time, but on one side their mouths say that they stress environmental protection, and on the other they want to be Mr. Nice Guy and can't resist the lobbying of the polluting factories. We should consider that the main thing is to let the people know the facts. Local officials have to face the pressure of the electorate, so we take the number of times a given county or city government has made inspections, how much they have collected in fines, how much they have budgeted for environmental protection ..., and we collate reports with a computer and then periodically release them.

Q. When serving as a legislator, you said that the EPA director was a "tragic hero." Do you think this is a tragedy of Taiwan's particular time and place, or do you think it is in the nature of the position not to be able to play the historical hero?

A. Ordinarily the EPA director must work exhaustively without praise. In Japan, they have had 23 directors of their environmental protection office in 20 years. Chinese often say that to play politics you can't offend the mighty houses, and that a compatible person makes for smooth political sailing. Today, when the Ministry of Communications wants to open a new road, or build an interchange, or the Ministry of Education wants to build a school, everyone welcomes them. When the environmental authorities want to build a garbage dump, everyone protests! Like today, we demand that Taiwan Power to do this, then tomorrow ask them do something else. Naturally they're not happy. But when the Linkou electrical plant incident occurred, we did not approve of Taiwan Power agreeing to pay compensation just because people had surrounded the factory, so because of this the people weren't happy with us, and now both sides are displeased!

But, if we make everybody happy, the Environmental Protection Administration is finished, washed up, for it would show that we have no principled stand. If everyone is dissatisfied, perhaps this means that the EPA position is really impartial! It's probably a little Ah Q [foolish] to think this way! [Laughs]

If It's Easy, They Don't Need Me

Q. So why are you willing to accept this tiring, unappreciated role? Is it because you felt powerless in the face of the long and complex procedural breakdown in the Legislative Yuan?

A. From the Taipei City Council to the Legislative Yuan, I served as an elected official for ten years. To do some executive branch work is certainly a new experience and training. Further, in the last two years the Legislative Yuan has been in turmoil, and there was not much of a sense of accomplishment. Every legislator, including those in the opposition party, knows that this is wrong, but no one can extract himself. No matter whether you're a professor, a lawyer or a doctor, when you get into that environment, with pushing and shoving, or fisticuffs, you seem to become a different person. Don't go then! But then you'll let your constituents down! However, to sit there everyday is really a waste of your life, and this is one factor I weighed in taking this position.

Yet, even more important of course is that I have always been deeply concerned about environmental protection, and it was one of the main areas of my political activity and interpellations. You constantly interpellate or demand things of others, and then today you get the chance to come and do it yourself, if you don't take it, then you can't say any more about it. With Taiwan's environmental pollution already gone this far, we certainly need to do something. I also often feel that if something is easy,then I'm not needed there, and I have always wanted to do things which present me with a challenge, which gives me more of a sense of satisfaction.

Q. You're not concerned this will affect your original plan for your political life?

A. To tell you the truth, I rarely think of this problem. For me, when I am doing anything, I think it's most important to do that thing well. Only ask right or wrong, not beneficial or not beneficial. Only ask correct or incorrect, don't ask about gain or loss. If you always wonder whether some matter is advantageous to you or not, you'll worry about this one or fear offending that one; then I wouldn't be Jaw Shau-kong. Society is very pluralistic, if you do anything in this way, some people will praise you and others will condemn you. So if you think something is right just go and do it, and anyway I'll take the political responsibility! Also, what difference does it make if I can't be in politics? If I can't do it then I won't, and there's nothing to get agitated about.

Competing With His Own Record

Q. It is generally believed that with your conditions, there is even greater room for development, and in the past some voters said they wanted to push you to run for president in the future. What is your ultimate objective? If you were to be a person whose actions could affect the whole people, a person who makes history, what do you feel you still lack?

A. There are too many variables for the future, though I think overall that electoral politics are inescapable. Society is more and more democratic, and in the future, whether it is mayor, provincial governor, or even president, all will be produced by elections. But if you ask me what I want to run for it is hard to say; you have to see the situation in society at that time before you can decide. Most important still is that I be able to utilize my strong suit and talents, and not waste time. When I came to the EPA, some people envied me, and others thought that being director of an administration level agency meant nothing! But what I considered was that a director can still do a great deal of things, and my principles for choosing are essentially those.

It's not that I'm avoiding your question. It just hard to say about the future. How could we know two years ago that Taiwan would be the way it is today? That the world situation would be what it is? Times change too quickly, and you discover that originally you were progressive, but how could you suddenly become backward in a flash? Originally a reformist, and suddenly a conservative! So as far as I can see, people today should just do our current jobs well. A political person's greatest challenge is his own record, and in fact he is competing with his own record. Perhaps one day you will discover you can't keep up with the times, and you can only move to retire.

Not a Very Complicated Person

Q. What kind of person do you think you are? Some of your aides when you were a legislator say that your personality is very tough and direct, but because of this you lose your temper relatively easily and act precipitously. Do you agree with this view?

A. From different angles, probably every person's view of me is different. As I am today is definitely not the same as ten years ago. Basically I am not a very complicated person, quite simple really. I like to simplify complex questions--life is already too complicated. I am also a very optimistic person; I've never had trouble sleeping, don't hold a grudge, and have relatively rough sensitivities. To be a political personality! People give you a few words of praise and you're so happy you could die, someone derides you a little and you're so angry you could keel over, and in three days your nerves are shot. When I first got into politics, I would be very angry about rumors or misunderstandings, but slowly I have come not to be so affected by outside influences; this is probably a lesson for me from politics!

Q. You have been in politics ten years. What was the most meaningful period? What was the most difficult? The most unforgettable?

A. Yesterday I saw an ad on TV for Kuomin-tang candidates in the National Assembly elections. When I saw the shots related to the lifting of martial law, permitting family visits to the mainland, and so on, I thought, "I participated in that, I was a part of it." That feeling was very complex, and hard to describe. In Taipei City I often see an underpass or pedestrian bridge that I got built as a city councilor, and even after many years, I still feel a sense of contentment as I cross, a feeling that money just can't buy. But the process has been very arduous, the executive branch officials are usually more conservative, and as an elected representative you have to put forth relatively forward-looking viewpoints, so you will often be rejected, or your motives will be questioned.

It Feels Great to Partake in History

In politics one finds both that there is often deception and you must confront many political tactics and that there are no permanent enemies or permanent friends. In fact I really dislike this side of politics. If you have some ideal you want to put into place, if you have goals you want to achieve, you have to have the positions in order to make an impact. In particular, social change has been great over the past few years, and the next few years will be the same, so this is a turning point. It's also rather satisfying to participate in history, and it is not everybody who gets the chance to participate, and to make a piece of history.

[Picture Caption]

"Everybody come here for a photo, and work together for environmental protection." Jaw needs even more environmental protection manpower to help him with his duties.

"If it's easy then they don't need me to do it!" He says that director of the EPA is a very challenging position. (photo by Diago Chiu)

In office less than a year, he has already put a lot of "environmental protection pressure" on business and other government agencies. The photo shows a face-to-face meeting with the Taipei City Environmental Protection Bureau garbage team.

The work of safeguarding the environment is hard, with no flattering praise in return. Will he become, in his own phrase, a "tragic hero"?

"News is wherever Jaw Shau-kong is." Reporters see him as a focus of the news. (photo by Pu Hua-chih)

"If it's easy then they don't need me to do it!" He says that director of the EPA is a very challenging position. （photo by Diago Chiu）

In office less than a year, he has already put a lot of "environmental protection pressure" on business and other government agencies. The photo shows a face-to-face meeting with the Taipei City Environmental Protection Bureau garbage team.

The work of safeguarding the environment is hard, with no flattering praise in return. Will he become, in his own phrase, a "tragic hero"?

"News is wherever Jaw Shau-kong is." Reporters see him as a focus of the news. （photo by Pu Hua-chih）