Asia Watcher--An Interview With Ezra Vogel

Q: The Four Little Dragons is mainly a discussion of the processes of industrialization of Asia's little dragons and the history of the economic development of these areas. As a sociologist, how does your observation and analysis of economic development differ from that of the economist?

Words into reason? Forced interpretations?

A: I am concerned with the entire social structure. This includes the economy, politics, social phenomena, historical background, cultural particularities, and every kind of relationship between them, and hence people's values.

My teacher in the faculty of sociology at Harvard was Talcott Parsons, who was an expert in this respect. Economists concentrate on economics and mainly use statistical analysis with an all-embracing theoretical framework and method of analysis. In this respect, I am an outsider. Yet they are not concerned about things outside economics, whereas I am.

On the whole, the concerns of economics are comparatively narrow, but more objective. If the premises are defined, given the same figures and methods of statistical analysis, the same conclusions can be reached. My research, however, is very complicated and even includes how people think. Although I insist on striving for objectivity, it is still hard to avoid using subjective judgment.

Q: With it being hard to avoid some degree of subjectivity, and being faced with the possibility of a number of different interpretations of the data, how does the sociologist reach a conclusion? Previously, Western scholars said that because of the pervasiveness of Confucian thinking, the East could not industrialize. When your Japan as Number One was published, everyone still thought that Japan did not have the right conditions to succeed--just look at the life-employment system: Without the threat of unemployment, how could employees go all out and business be competitive?

Now everyone says that the economic achievements of East Asia would be impossible without Confucian culture. The life-employment system has led to that very employee loyalty which is one of the main reasons for the success of the Japanese economy. It seems that when such things were said in the past they were just rationalizations of people's words which had not yet had to pass through any kind of critical testing.

Sociologists need social experience

A: Yes, this kind of thing often happens. It is like the dependency theory that was fashionable some years ago. This held that the late developing countries needed to depend on the advanced countries, with the result that such countries had no way to advance because the developed countries would not let them do so. Wanting to exploit their resources and labor, the developed countries would only allow the late-developers to do the most basic work. Nowadays most of the people who believed in this theory have gradually come to accept that it is not right because, according to such a theory, the four Asian dragons basically could never have appeared.

When sociologists make judgements, of course they will be influenced by such things as their background, starting point of research, range of materials and depth of thinking. But there are also times when the quality of research is not related to their intelligence and conscientiousness. The problem is often rather that many sociologists have not left their schools and their social experience is thus insufficient.

If you want to analyze a society, it is not enough to rely on theory. Apart from understanding its historical culture and referring to and making comparisons with the experiences of other cultures, you must still make actual contact, look at how people think and understand how that society works. If is like in the 1960s and 1970s when a lot of American China watchers just looked at it from the outside. If they had had an understanding of Chinese history and culture, then they would not have had such a rosy picture and believed that the Cultural Revolution was bringing new hope to China.

Starting at home

I have always felt that I have been very fortunate. My doctoral thesis was on the subject of domestic conditions and the behavior of children. The survey was conducted in the Boston area among families of Italian and Irish descent, and traditional American homes. Among my supervisors were John Spiegel --a very good doctor of psychiatry--and Florence Kluckhohn, a social anthropologist. So, from the beginning, my most important training was in how to understand people's thinking, customs and views, not how to analyze politics or economics.

I got my doctorate in 1958 and won a scholarship to go to Japan and study the same kind of domestic problems. Although I am a foreigner and could not fully understand what people were thinking at heart, I still felt I could get closer by working with people.

I lived in a small suburban town and everybody I met was Japanese, apart from my wife. From speaking with them and general interaction we became friends and I gradually came to understand their life and thought. Later I expanded my research to look at Japanese society as a whole using Parsons' theories. This understanding of people is without doubt the best way to get a foundation, and it is what I rely on most when making judgements.

Sensitivity derived from a mother

Q: Can you give an example?

A: In The Four Little Dragons I raised the issue of the entrance exam system. In Japan and the four dragons, people face a series of examinations from when they are very young. No matter whether they want to get into a good school or get a good job, all must prove their ability in the examinations.

When I was in Japan, I discovered that the examinations for small children were a big affair in the home. When talking with us, a mother with a child taking an examination that year always frowned and wrinkled her brow when this matter was raised. People even reminded us not to disturb them--not the child but the parents--because they wanted to help their child prepare for the examination and were going through the same unusual period.

What role does the examination play in this society? How big is its influence? How deep? What relationship is there between the examination systems used by big corporations to acquire personnel and the development of business? How do the authorities direct the school entry exams? The four dragons ail have intense competition for school entry and all have examinations for employment, so how has this influenced their development? I went on to carry out deep and extensive research into all these problems, but what had made me begin to pay attention to the examination system was that mother.

Q: So you are saying that it is not from any theory or overall structure that you look, but from an understanding of the basic units of people and homes?

A: Yes. When my American students go to East Asia to do research, I want them to make full contact and get an understanding of people and their homes. Of course, it is also indispensable to read books and discuss things with the experts.

"What truth did they tell?"

Q: This is really a good training. But how do you decide if the phenomena you have observed are widespread? How do you know whether the interviewee is telling the truth?

A: Concerning the answers given by interviewees, I do not usually think "Did they tell the truth?" but rather consider "What truth did they tell?"

Take an experience I had in Japan when the patriarch of a house once told me that he had moved home because it was more convenient for getting to work and his relatives were close by. His wife later quietly told my wife that it was because a fortune teller had said that the old house was not auspicious for them. Some people might say that this man was hiding the truth and that what he said has no value. However, I am inclined to interpret such information from another angle: He revealed a fact, which was that he avoided talking about his superstitions. Since we have come to understand more about the Japanese, We have discovered that generally they are embarrassed about beliefs that might sound unscientific. On the other hand, they are quite open and brash about things that Americans consider to be private, such as personal finance and sexual experience--especially the men.

Apart from this, asking and listening to what people say also involves being aware of how the question was asked and how you listen. This all involves certain skills. For example, do not reveal all your own ideas first, so as to avoid restricting or misleading your interviewee. When you are listening to speech, pay attention to what comes before and after, to the situation at that time, and what might slip out unconsciously. Also, meet the person at different locations. Most people behave differently when they are with different sexes, and there is also a difference between individual interviews and having a third person present. So as to get to know someone even better, and understand what they say better, you have to meet them in different places--even bump into them at different times on the same day.

Relying on key informants

There is no simple principle that can be used to judge what is the truth. Only tried methods, patience and hard work can get near to it. As for judging whether what is procured really reflects the general situation, you have to rely on even more interviews and refer to other materials, such as research reports, statistics and the results of questionnaires. My method of research is explained in my book Japan's New Middle Class.

Q: Your numerous works all use this kind of fieldwork survey, but The Four Little Dragons is different.

A: To borrow a mainland phrase, it can be said to have no "sitting point." This is not an ideal situation, but I have been to these four places many times and have many friends with whom I have held deep discussions. Take Korea: I first went there in 1965 and became good friends with a sociologist. Later on I went back more than ten times and each time I met him again. When he comes to the United States he looks me up. Apart from this, I also have a number of students and assistants who come from these places.

My time is limited, and I cannot do everything myself, so I want to find people with a deep understanding of those societies to talk to--so called "key informants." In Taiwan, Yin Yun-peng gives me a lot of help. Last year I visited more than 30 countries to prepare writing a book about Japan's role in the new world order, for which I am also using this method.

Sorting data is the biggest headache

Q: How do you keep the large amount of material you have collected in order? Especially the anecdotes and examples you often use in your books to strengthen your explanations. How is it that these fragments do not get lost, and will they be released at an appropriate time?

A: You have really touched on a sore point. The materials are really too numerous. At home I have more than twenty filing cabinets, and that is not counting those in the office. I make notes when I interview people, and when I return to my hotel in the evening I record myself talking about the more important information I have heard that day. When I get back here I ask my secretary to type out the recordings. I first divide them by country, then file them away alphabetically according to people's names. This aspect is relatively simple. What is a bother, though, is the small bits of data you talked about. You write them down as you hear them and put them away and often know you have got these things, but when you want them you can never find them.

My most painful experience was when I wrote a book about Canton which was published in 1969. I read fifteen years of newspapers and made notes on every edition. There were just so many notes that it was a real nightmare. Now I have changed my method. Before I have written each chapter and when I have read all the files for it, I do not look at them again while I am doing the writing, thus allowing my thoughts to flow. Of course, there will certainly need to be revisions, for which the notes can be referred to again. If I look at them while writing, then I will never finish. But as for those little bits of information, I still do not have an ideal method.

Teaching the public about East Asia

Q: According to what you say in The Four Little Dragons, it is a book written for the general public to read. As an academic, do you allot a portion of your time for academic writing and a portion for more popular works?

A: My "true work" is that of a Harvard professor. My most important responsibility is to teach. Nevertheless, I feel that academics have a responsibility to do some social educating. Also, there are times when teaching students and teaching society are not very different. This is because the school, apart from raising experts, must also teach students in general some basic knowledge about East Asia. This is the aim of the course I began in 1980 on industrial East Asia. This aspect of educating the general public--of course they are people with an interest and some level of knowledge--is not very different from teaching students. This was the case with Japan as Number One, which was originally written for students but was read by ordinary people.

Q: Will The Four Little Dragons be published in Chinese?

A: Mr. Charles Kao of the Commonwealth Publishing Company once raised the "possibility" that it could be translated, but I am not sure about what is happening about it now.

Q: Have you fixed an agreement?

A: No, because we are friends. Last time, when they published my One Step Ahead in China--Guangdong under Reform, it was just done on the nod.

Q: Do you feel that you are a little like an Asian person?

A: (Laughs) Too soft and not paying attention to laws. I was born in a small village in Ohio. Us small-town mid-westerners also do not use the law very much.

A lot of people say that when I talk with Japanese people it is definitely like this (nodding his head), but when I speak with my father I move like a traditional old Jew. When you research a particular culture or area, because you want to fully understand it, you naturally start to imitate it and in the course of time you are influenced. If you look at my timetable then you will see--it is arranged like that of a Japanese.

[Picture Caption]

(photo by Cheng Yuan-ching)

I do not usually think "Did they tell the truth?" but rather consider "What truth did they tell?"

(photo by Huang Li-li)

I do not usually think "Did they tell the truth?" but rather consider "What truth did they tell?"（photo by Huang Li-li）