Q: Has the ruckus over dual nationality been a shock to people at the Academia Sinica? What do people think about it all?

A: It has been a shock for some. Several current institute directors specifically asked former President Wu Ta-you whether they would have to give up their US citizenship when they returned to take up their posts. So President Wu asked the government, and was told that the Academia Sinica should follow the practice of the Ministry of Education. The Ministry had issued a regulation stating that dual nationality was acceptable. So they came back to Taiwan.

Many institute directors have become very anxious since people began making an issue of dual nationality. If they have to choose between giving up their foreign citizenship or giving up their positions, I'm afraid many would prefer to give up their jobs.

Why? A lot of people are talking about the problem of "loyalty." This is not the correct way to discuss this issue. Let's look at our world overall, with its high degree of economic internationalization. The world has changed a great deal in the past five years. In the past, if you didn't have German or Japanese citizenship, you couldn't be a professor or hold a supervisory position in those countries. That's the reason a lot of overseas students could reach high positions in the US whereas they couldn't in Germany or Japan. In the past few years the Germans and Japanese have changed. Many German academic institutions have been vigorously recruiting foreigners. The same goes for Japan. In order to develop, they have been attracting foreigners from all over the world. The people we are talking about here in Taiwan have ROC citizenship. If we can't tolerate them just because they have a second nationality, that is wrong.

Forced to choose

Q: What kind of mood are they in right now? What are you doing to ease their minds? Have you told them your views?

A: Right now they are feeling very upset. I can only tell them not to worry, that I will do my best to find a solution. I've just been on the phone with Examination Yuan President Chiu, and I told him my views.

Of course everyone has a different viewpoint. If they haven't worked abroad for a long period, or seen the changes that science and technology are making in the world, then they don't know what is the best thing to do for the development of the nation. The one thing I want to emphasize today is that if certain people are chased off because of their dual nationality, this would be very, very disheartening.

One special thing about our country is that early on we had a great many overseas students. From the end of the 1960s to the beginning of the 1980s, most university graduates who wanted to keep studying went abroad. What can Taiwan utilize in the future to catch up to the rest of the world? I can say two things with certainty: One is the huge financial resources accumulated through economic development. The second is that group of talented people who we lost back in those days, who settled abroad and accumulated very valuable experience. We need them to come back to fill in the gap. They are willing to come back, but now we have the problem of doubts being cast on their loyalty because of dual nationality.

I know of one department chairman at National Taiwan University who has decided not to continue because he has been very hurt. If they didn't have strong feelings for this piece of earth, they never would have come back in the first place. Many people gave up good positions, accepted lower salaries back here, and suffered a downgrading in their quality of life, yet still people question their loyalty.

What makes me sad is that many people are ready to give up. They are just going to leave and forget the whole thing because they think there is no hope for this place. What makes me even more sad is that before I left the US many people said they would come back to help me. Recently both National Taiwan University and Cheng Kung University have been looking for new chancellors for their medical schools. But because of this dual nationality problem, some of the people we have in mind to recruit will have second thoughts, which effectively narrows our recruitment pool.

You have to have time to prepare

Q: But since people are going to doubt them, why don't they just give up their US citizenship?

A: Let me give you an example. Let's say someone has worked for the US federal government for over 30 years, from the time they were in their 20s to now, when they are 60. I ask this person to take early retirement to come back to Taiwan. He's got a monthly pension as well as health insurance. If he gives up his US citizenship, then everything he worked his whole life to accumulate would be thrown out the window.

If the government were to offer to compensate them for what they give up, then they would have far fewer worries. But this would be a stupid way to do things.

If someone is 60 years old and comes back to be an institute director for three years, if they are ill they can go back to the US, where they have insurance, for treatment or long-term care, so they won't become a burden on our society. No one has given much thought to these types of things. Nor have they thought about how to promote development in our society to meet the 21st century. Right now the dual nationality problem is being looked at purely from the political point of view, which is incorrect.

Aside from personal factors, an individual might have other difficulties. If I ask some well-known figure to come back, that person would definitely have a lot of things going on in the US, or perhaps be in the middle of a major project. A lot of people depend on him because he is so capable. If such a person were to give up US citizenship, he would no longer be eligible for federal grants or research assistance. What could he then say to those people who depend on him?

I had to handle a lot of things like this myself when I came back two years ago. A lot of people think that the evaluation committee offered me the job and then I came back. It wasn't like that at all. The committee offered me the job because they knew I had already decided to come back. Before I formally returned, I taught at National Taiwan University for seven months, and I had already made my decision before going back to the US at that time. So I made all the necessary arrangements. Of these, the most important was that I arranged for one of my former students to take my position at a US government laboratory. Many of my students could continue with their research under his auspices. Otherwise I would have done those students a great wrong.

To give up everything

I said in the Legislative Yuan that even if we insist that dual nationals give up their foreign citizenship, we have to have a transitional period. Or let's say this: The term of an institute director is three years. If after three years they want to continue as institute directors, then it would be reasonable to ask them to give up their dual nationality. We should give them a chance to decide whether or not they can truly flourish in this environment. Look at the people I've invited back. Some of them will be able to stay, others will go back. If you want them to just blindly give up their foreign citizenship, that is asking too much.

Look at it again from another angle. These people are very accomplished. In terms of scholarship they are acting on the global level, not just in their own labs. If it is easier for someone to travel and engage in academic exchanges by having dual nationality, that is not a bad thing.

Q: Did you have some reservations about giving up your US citizenship? If you could do it then, why aren't you willing to apply the same standards to your colleagues now?

A: I didn't have any reservations, because my situation was different when I came back to become Academia Sinica president. I am responsible for an enormous research institution, and often have to represent the country in exchanges or signing agreements with other nations. I think it would be wrong for me to be half-USA and half-ROC when representing the country. Therefore, seeing as I was going to be responsible for so many things, I gave up my US citizenship to be an ROC citizen, and I'm proud of it. At that time I didn't know what the law was; I just decided to give up my US citizenship.

But the institute directors are actually researchers [who are not required to give up dual citizenship] who are asked to simultaneously take the posts of director for a three-year term. If I'm only coming back for three years, but you want me to give up my citizenship and all the things I have built up over a lifetime, that would be unreasonable.

Is there a point to coming back?

I believe that there is enough wisdom in our society to resolve this problem. If one day it truly gets to the point where someone says that I have to fire everybody with dual nationality, and that those who want to come back cannot come back, then I'm going to have to do some serious rethinking myself. Can I really get things done here? I will have enormous doubts: I came back in order to promote certain things. Did I do the right thing? One day, if I can't even protect the people under me, if I can't convince others of my ideals about what needs to be done, then I will feel that there isn't much significance to my being here.

But that is not to say that if dual nationals cannot be kept I will lose heart and just leave. It does mean that if I can't put into practice the ideals that I have expressed to the people and their elected representatives, then I can't do all that I otherwise would do for the Academia Sinica. Naturally, at the present I am still struggling, and I hope that after a month or so society will come to understand what I think is correct. Right now people do not really understand, but I hope that reading your report will help them to do so.

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One day, if I can't even protect the people under me, if I can't convince others of my ideals about what needs to be done, then I will feel that there isn't much significance to my being here.